记忆

记录7月12日晚与阿彼察邦·韦拉斯哈古Apichatpong Weerasethakul导演的连线，活动由百老汇电影中心和MOViE MOViE策划，持续约45分钟。如果有错漏，请豆友们提示我修改，感谢！

剧透分割线

【问题一—北京】

……哥伦比亚有一点类似（泰国），是一个在热带的国家，它的近当代也比较动荡。《记忆》这部影片探讨的是记忆与声音的关系，因为声音的传播在不同的介质中不太一样，想问导演，选择哥伦比亚这个国家作为拍摄地，跟泰国（相比），以及潮湿的空气介质，是否对记忆与声音的关系的特殊性有相关联的考量？

[Q1 from Beijing]

…We all know that previously you were doing most of your films in Thailand, this time you choose Columbia. …We also notice that in this film, you discuss a relationship between memory and sound, and you choose sound as the vehicle. We are curious when you were choosing Columbia as a place to shoot the film, did you take the humidity into consideration, or did you think that maybe it has something to do with, or maybe it’s impacting your way of delivering the sound effect in a special way?

[A1]

I think honestly, it can be many countries, but for Memoria, it’s really suitable for Columbia, in terms of the shared memory of people between (Columbia and Thailand), people are still struggling within. I think that’s very unique, if I make film in another country, I will still be happy, but it will be another film, it’s not Memoria. So that’s why I focus on audio and memory. Because it allowed you to listen. It allowed you to really be synchronized and interpret in different ways. It allowed you to be quieter than just looking at the picture, that’s what I mean. So, you are very focused. I think at that point when I was making this film, I need this kind of focus.

【回答一】

说实话我觉得这部影片可以在很多地方拍摄，我之所以选择哥伦比亚作为拍摄地，是因为我觉得它对于泰国人和哥伦比亚人的共享的记忆来说，是个很合适的地方，因为我们两个国家的人在其中都有我们自己的挣扎。其他国家当然也可以拍摄电影，但是拍出来的就会是一部不同的电影，就不会是《记忆》这部影片。

在《记忆》当中，我的确专注在声音的呈现上，因为它能够让我们去聆听，能够让我们更多地沉浸在当下，可以以很多种方式去理解这当中给出的素材，同样也能够让观众安静下来，而不是紧紧盯着屏幕上的画面，所以我觉得用这样一个更专注在声音的表现方式，能够让我们更专注，这份专注和沉浸其实也是当时我在拍摄《记忆》的时候所需要的。

【问题二—上海、杭州】

在影片当中，其实我们觉得有非常强烈的对于暴力和殖民创伤的呈现，包括比如在街头的恐惧与骚动，军队，以及尸骨等等，这让我们想起《拉丁美洲被切开的血管》这本书，它们都讲述了拉丁美洲绵延数个世纪的暴力的命运。《记忆》和导演的前作相比，我们觉得它延续了很多之前关于现实和梦境、情感、前世今生等主题，但是相比之下，似乎《记忆》的视角更加客观一点，不论是刚才提到的呈现的创伤也好，甚至是更加宏大的主题，人类对地球或环境的破坏，可能带有更尖锐的批判的眼光，似乎是朝向现实主义更迈进了一步。请问导演怎么看待这种转向，是您主动的一个选择，还是因为您有一个外来者的身份，所以可能会显得比较客观？但同时，您为了连通共同的记忆，做了哪些功课，是否有受到南美魔幻现实主义作品的影响？还是在您调研的过程当中遇到的一个一个个体的经验积累，才导致这样一种转向？

[Q2 from Shanghai and Hangzhou]

In Memoria, we see that you present a lot of violence … from Columbia streets. Watching this film constantly reminded us of the book by Eduardo Galeano, it’s called Open Veins of Latin America (Las venas abiertas de america latina), it describes the politics and the violence that lasts for centuries in Latin America. We also know that in your previous films, there were elements or reincarnation, past life, hallucination, reality, dreams, emotions, and so on. In this film, we still can feel your touch, however, it looks more critical and realistic, as it has the actual history to refer to. So, it feels like you are pivoting a little bit towards the realism in this film, is that your conscious choice, or is that your advantage as a foreigner that has an observing perspective towards the country?

The second question is in order to tune in the shared memory, what kind of preparations you have done? Were you inspired by surrealism authors, or by the actual person you talked with in Columbia?

[A2]

Thank you very much. In fact, I’ve never read that book. I actually see the film more as a dream, it’s not much of an ultra-realism, it’s more about a personal journey. And I try not to present actual violence or trauma in the film, but more hidden. And it’s really open, the film can just be something about this woman, who kind of being checked out of her everyday life, from her own problems, whether she lost someone or went through a heartbreak, which we all feel. Or the film can be seen as political with the anticipation of violence, but the violence never happened. That means, I feel that the film is really like a platform, where you are allowed to interpret, to dream in your own way. So that’s the more conscious choice.

It also links to the second question, it’s about me being in Columbia, just sat there and listened to many many stories, kind of incorporating into my own past memories in Thailand, and my melancholy maybe. So, I think the film is a mixture of this personal observation, but at the same time, it’s a film of solitude as well, that we all share, not in a good or bad way. It’s just a solitude, that can sometimes bring us happiness as well, I think.

【回答二】

说实话，《拉丁美洲被切开的血管》这本书我并没有读过，这部电影对我来说更像是一个梦境，所以我可能也不会说它是超现实主义的，我觉得这部电影更多的是一种个人的旅程，在其中我并没有很直接地去展示暴力或创伤，而是以一种很隐蔽的方式去表现的。而且这部电影可能也没有很明显的情节，它并没有明确地表述这位女主角失去了某个心爱之人或是她正在经历着一些让她心碎的事情，这实际上是一部非常开放的电影，关于她的旅程，在这里面我也没有很直接地去表达暴力。我觉得其实如果你想的话，许多电影都可以被看作是政治性的，但是的确在这里面我没有明确地表达暴力，我觉得我更想要把它当作一个平台，任何人都在这个平台上得到允许，可以自由地，以自己的方式做解读，以自己的方式去做梦。

回答第二个问题，我的行前准备更多的是我直接到哥伦比亚去，坐在那里，聆听人们的故事，在聆听的过程中把它和我自己在泰国的回忆，还有我个人的一些情感结合，所以更多的是一种个人观察及记忆的结合。同时，我觉得它也是一部与孤独有关的电影，这种孤独是我们所有人共有的，并没有好坏之分，甚至有时候可能会让我们非常快乐。

【问题三—深圳】

导演在之前的作品中用了非常多的非职业演员，甚至有些演员也是导演的朋友。《记忆》这一部作品中，导演用了非常多专业演员，包括国际电影明星蒂尔达·斯文顿，还有哥伦比亚当地的演员。为什么导演要安排两位长相完全不一样，年纪也不一样的埃尔南这个角色，这两个角色的选角和表演有什么特殊含义吗？以及您认为在调度和成片的效果上，和之前的作品有什么不一样？

[Q3 from Shenzhen]

We know that previously you’ve always been working with unprofessional actors and actresses, some of which are also your friends. This time you are working with many professional actors and actresses, including Tilda Swinton, and famous Columbian actors. So, first of all, why did you choose two Hernáns, that have different looks and different ages? Secondly, how is working with professional actors, in terms of … and the end result, different from your previous experiences?

[A3]

Thank you. For Hernán, originally there is one man, the role is played by one man with different makeup or special effects. But after I look at the actors and read the film over and over, I realize that maybe Hernán doesn’t exist, it could be any man, in the same way that Jessica, that Tilda played, could be Hernán as well. When you look at the last scene, it is this revelation of how everyone is connected, and every memory just manifest and is affected as one global union. And I think, in the latter half of the film, it tells the audience that this is not reality, this is cinema. So, for me, Hernán can be ten people, it doesn’t matter, that’s the point.

For the second question, I feel that, I don’t know this much difference, I think that Tilda and other actors who come into this film, are very open. In fact, Tilda didn’t know Columbia, didn’t know the culture, the language. Everything is so new to her, and to me too. … the Columbia actors to restart everything new. Everyone gets the total time to spend together, so we became friends. I feel that even my past films, or this film, or the future, I don’t think I can work with professionals, because I am no professional as well. So, everything is about being fresh, and not tied to any kind of pre conception of acting, or directing even. That’s my idea.

【回答三】

最开始其实打算只有一个埃尔南，通过使用妆效在不同阶段呈现不同的效果，但是当我一再重看影片时意识到，也许应该采用不同的演员，因为从本质上说，埃尔南并不存在，所以任何人都可以扮演他，同样地，杰西卡也不存在（也可以是他），其中在最后一幕戏中，当埃尔南和杰西卡在互相分享彼此的经验，当他们连接在一起的时候，我想在那一幕之前的某一瞬间，观众们已经通过杰西卡意识到这一整部影片所讲述的故事并不是现实，所以也许是否用同一个演员并不重要，就好像杰西卡这个角色也并不重要。

第二个问题，我会说蒂尔达·斯文顿是以一种非常开放的态度进入片场的，我和蒂尔达一样，我们都不了解哥伦比亚，也不熟悉它的文化和语言，我们都是带着一种新鲜的视角来到这里。但是我们的哥伦比亚演员非常专业，在片场我们共同度过了很多时间，我们也成为了朋友。说实话，我之前也不倾向于和专业演员合作，因为我本人就不是专业的。我会更想用一种新鲜的眼光去创作，而不是将自己局限在对演戏或者导演的某种固定认知中。

【问题四—北京】

我们注意到电影里有一些非现实的、奇幻的设定，比如主人公其实把自己的身体当作某种声音和记忆的存储设备，通过碰触他人的身体，可以获取这个人记忆中的过往经验和体验，这其实和现在我们使用电子设备进行同步传输感觉有一点像，她作为一个白人，进入哥伦比亚热带雨林，去理解当地的人和环境所遭受的创伤，看起来没有任何障碍。想问导演，我们是不是可以这样理解，您觉得人和人之间终极性的沟通理解，其实可以超越文化的障碍，超越意识形态的差别，可以是一种电子化或网络化的形式？

[Q4 from Beijing]

In this film, we see that Jessica is almost acting like a memory device, that acquires others’ memory and experience by a touch. It’s almost reminding us of how different electronic devices syncing data with each other by the contacts of …. Apparently, even Jessica has her own culture and ideology, she has no difficulty understanding the other culture. Is it bold to say that perhaps that’s also how you visualize the future communication between human kind, that we would be able to sync our data, or information, or ideas with each other through a touch, that will be overcoming culture difference or all kinds of differences?

[A4]

It’s hard to say, I think the film itself, the medium, the cinema, is like a bridge that allows us to empathize with other being, because for the course of two hours, you became Jessica, you could hear the sound no body hears but she heard. So, for me, it’s just the play of this kind of device that unifies people. But I think to unify people, at the same time, we can sense these differences in us, to see different cultures, to see how different we are. It is also very profound to be human, and to see how differences can be together as well, and we are allowed to be living in each one’s own way.

I think cinema has these two qualities that, it’s like a dream that we lose our own identity during the night, it allows us to be someone else, to see something unique. But at the same time, when we experience that, it also unifies us as well, that we all go through this together. I just want to say that with these two distinct qualities, cinema already works like magic.

【回答四】

我觉得电影是一种媒介，或者一座桥梁，它让我们可以去共情他人的生活，比如在观看《记忆》的这两个小时中，我们所有观众都成为了杰西卡，我们可以听见只有她能听见的声音。在我心中，也许电影就是这样一个所谓的设备，一方面可以让我们抛下自己的身份，去成为其他人，体验其他人的生活，去一起做梦；另一方面，它又可以把我们带到一起，电影有这样一种神奇的作用。

【问题五—上海、杭州】

导演在电影中，通过声音这样一个媒介做了非常不同的尝试，在埃尔南和杰西卡最后的这段记忆传输中，都是通过声音的闪回，来告诉我们很多，但同时，在最后揭秘的部分，我们还是看到影像承担了很大的作用。想问导演，在最后为什么还是要用影像来呈现这一切？导演怎么评价声音的作用和影像的作用，它们之间有什么区别？

[Q5 from Shanghai and Hangzhou]

In this film, we see that you try a lot of different things with sound materials, however in the last scene, you are not just using sound, also you showed an image. Why did you choose to use image to reveal the answer? What is the role of sound and image in this film?

[A5]

That scene was actually just one of the possibilities, because there are many many possibilities of that sound, I think that (choice) is kind of personal, because it’s my experience, when I grew up, I was really attached to that genre of film, or novel.

At the same time, you can see the sound design, it reveals an image when Hernán sleeps by the river, everything is so artificial. Filmmaking is about putting sound and image together, and it is kind of related to the previous question, that it makes us look at ourselves, we are also like film, we are just collecting memories, and experience with these two important senses, visual and sound. So, I think that’s the point.

【回答五】

这部电影最后的镜头对我来说其实只是这声巨响许多许多可能性中的一个，我选择那样一个镜头是因为很个人的原因，在我的成长过程中，我受到那一类电影和小说作品的影响。说到声音和画面的作用，我会想到埃尔南在河边睡觉的一幕，当时周围所有的东西都静止了，那时候我们需要声音也需要画面，这也回到之前的话题，在电影中，我们有机会向内看，看见我们自己，生活也和电影非常相似，我们都是在通过感官，无论是听觉还是视觉，收集信息，体验这个世界。这就是我想要表达的一种体验。

【问题六—深圳现场】您之前在采访中说过现在已经很少看电影了，为什么还在继续拍电影？

[Q6 from Shenzhen live]

You previously mentioned that you don’t watch films that much anymore, but we also see that you are working on the next project. Why is that?

[A6]

I like reading books. I feel that there is a lot of repetition in filmmaking. For me, I have a lot to do, meaning that I enjoy being in nature, I enjoy being with the dog, and I enjoy making films, but not seeing them. Lately, I also enjoy sharing, with film students and filmmakers of different age. I feel that I have a question, why do we keep making films. This is my own question too, that I cannot answer yet, because I feel like if I don’t watch films, why do I make them. One of the answers is that the process of making is really enriching, and it challenges me in the way that, how to look at the world through film is something very profound for me at the point in life, also, to discuss, especially with the young generation, what is cinema to them, what is life to them.

【回答六】

首先，为什么很少看电影，因为我在花很多时间读书，我也看到电影（制作）中有很多重复。我在生活中有很多其他事情要做，在自然中待着，或者和我的狗在一起。同样，在现阶段，我想做一些分享的工作，和电影系的学生和电影制作者，无论他们是什么年龄，来自哪里，一起讨论交流想法。这个问题我也在问自己，现在这个阶段我也还回答不出来，但是我会说，制作电影的过程对我来说很重要，因为它非常丰富，也非常具有挑战性，我很享受通过制作电影的过程去看世界，它是一个非常深刻的历程，制作电影也可以帮助我和年轻一代做一些讨论，我们可以共同探讨电影对他们来说意味着什么，生活对他们来说意味着什么。

【问题七—上海现场】我知道您之前在芝加哥艺术学院学习电影，我也是两年前刚刚从这个学校毕业，我曾经听过学校里的一位教授说，芝加哥这座城市没有带给您任何灵感。我想问，这么多年过去了，您对芝加哥的记忆有没有回到过您的意识中，这段在芝加哥的记忆现在会以什么样的方式出现在您的生活里？

[Q7 from Shanghai live]

I actually graduated from the same university that you went to in Chicago, two years ago. When I was student there, one of the professors mentioned that he doesn’t think you are inspired by Chicago, the city itself, in any way. So, I’m just curious, has this Chicago memory ever come back to you? Has it ever occurred to you in the future, it does have some impact on you, in what form it will show in your life again?

[A7]

I think Chicago, for me, is not a place to make films, but a place to understand, because I have so many wonderful teachers and friends, and the experience of looking from there at Thailand is very precious. I was just there last month, sharing films with students there, so it has that purpose of education, and it’s kind of like a second home (to me).

But when I make films, I’m so attached to my own childhood memory. Even now, I’ve been living in the north of Thailand for fifteen years, I still keep going back to the northeast of Thailand where I grew up. So, even within Thailand, I have very specific area that I shoot my films.

(The making of) Memoria and the next film, is something very different, it’s a challenge, it really opens up a different new path for me. With Memoria experience, it really showed that you can make films anywhere but still be yourself. You can read your memory, your childhood the way you look at life with you.

【回答七】

芝加哥对我来说也许不是一个制作电影的地方，但是它对我来说是一个带来很多理解、很多认识的地方，在这里我认识了很多老师，很多朋友，尤其是在那个年纪，站在芝加哥回望泰国对我来说是一份非常独特的体验。上周我才刚刚去过芝加哥，在那里和电影学生分享我的想法和感受，芝加哥现在对我来说是一个更具有教育意义的目的地，我会更多地把分享和教育放在这个地方，它对我来说更像是第二个家。

做电影的时候，我还是很执着于我的童年，因为我自己对家乡这个地方的认识。虽然我已经在泰国北部居住十五年了，我还常常回到泰国东北部，我成长的地方去。泰国对我来说是个很特定的话题。

我会说在制作完《记忆》这部电影之后，以及我现在准备下一部电影的过程中，我的确也认识到我实际上可以在任何地方制作电影，同时也可以继续保持自己的本色，携带我所有的回忆，童年的记忆，以及我个人看待这个世界的目光。

【问题八—北京现场】

我在您的电影里看到过鬼魂、亡灵的存在，您有没有在现实生活中真的见到过？或者您是不是真的相信亡灵的存在？

[Q8 from Beijing live]

In your films, there are a lot of elements of ghost, I’m just curious, in reality have you ever seen ghost?

[A8]

I have experienced something, but I’m not sure. It comes in the form of smell and feelings. If I explain to you, it would be too long. But at this time, I don’t really believe in ghost, or incarnation, or even aliens. Because I really believe in science, I think science is about discover, and to know that everything is really uncertain, that it can be proved right or wrong in the future, with human evolution and technological evolution. So, at this point I think it’s kind of useless to say if ghost exists or not.

【回答八】

我认为我可能是有和鬼魂打交道的经验，当时是一种气味，是一种感觉，具体的故事如果展开讲的话，可能就太长了。但是总的来说，说实话我并不相信鬼魂的存在，我也并不相信转世、外星人这些概念。实际上我非常相信科学，对我来说科学的要义是持续地探索和发现，科学的前提是我们抱着这种不确定的态度，知道未来随着人类的进化和科技的进步，可能今天的想法在未来会被证明仍是对的，或是错的。所以我觉得探讨鬼魂到底是否存在这个话题在现在来说没有太大的用处。

[last words from director]

I’d like to say the last words, I’d like to say thank you so much to the organizer, to make this happen, to link so many cities. Thank you for the audience to join us for the evening. For me, this film only works in the theatre, I hope you can feel this energy of being together, really see this time passing, and to share this beauty of listening. It sometimes can be more magical than seeing a ghost. I hope you agree. And have a good night.

【导演补充】

我想利用最后的时间再说几句，非常感谢这次活动的主办方，花了这么多时间和心思把各地观众连接在一起，做这一场映后/映前交谈。也谢谢大家来到电影院，对我来说，在电影院观看这部电影非常重要，希望大家也能感受到这种独特的能量，一起在影院目睹时间的流逝，享受听觉带来的美感，我想有时候这样的体验比实际见到一个鬼魂更加神奇。祝大家晚安。